How strong is goten and trunks?

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How strong is goten and trunks?; How strong is goten and trunks using piccolo levels
Tweet Topic Started: Aug 29 2016, 01:38 AM (3,910 Views)
+ Pyrus	Aug 30 2016, 06:16 AM Post #76
Posts: 39,342 Group: Legend Member #5,088 Joined: August 1, 2010 Gender Not Specified Country Chile	Neither should meaningless filler. It's not in the original material. Filler has no bearing on that.
	Spoiler: click to toggle


~~Squall Strife~~	Aug 30 2016, 06:44 AM Post #77
Posts: 1,188 Group: Suspended Member #13,373 Joined: July 12, 2016 Gender Male	Pyrus Aug 30 2016, 06:16 AM Neither should meaningless filler. It's not in the original material. Filler has no bearing on that. What does that have to do with anything. This is a hypothetical Krillin Attack on Perfect Cell. Even Manga Krillin Kienzan can't do anything to Manga Perfect Cell. Just because it's filler doesn't mean it automatically contradicts the manga & it doesn't in this instance for that matter. If not, where in the manga does it show any of Krillin's attacks had any affect on Perfect Cell. lol
	Gender Neutral, meaning I don't want to be specified to either gender. If you keep calling me by gender terms, I'm just going to call you an "it". That's all.


Zoom	Aug 30 2016, 01:09 PM Post #78
Posts: 3,426 Group: Member Member #12,146 Joined: March 16, 2015 Gender Male	Mr. Hashbrowns Aug 29 2016, 09:44 PM Quote: Vegeta was okay with Trunks cheating against Goten, obviously we can fully trust Vegeta because he said let's not use Ssj no surprise considering his personality, right You conveniently left out the fact Goten cheated first, so Trunks returning the favor was fair game. Quote: After the boys transform into a Ssj, they are still at a disadvantage, resorting to a chi blast to win. Which is still obviously an issue with the costume and not power, as immediately after that Goten reminds Trunks to hold back to prevent hurting her. If anything it further shows just how much that blanket was hindering them. You must of conveniently covered your eyes when i said "obviously we can trust Vegeta's promise" [sarcastic voice] knowing his characteristics. The point wasn't Trunks cheated, even though he did after 1. used Ssj to win, 2. promised he wouldn't use his left hand. The point was in Vegeta's reaction in both circumstances and Vegeta's word. The ONLY thing Vegeta kept is not fusing with Goku, while the other promises was just too hard for him to keep. Vegeta's character was still the same as before in Cell arc up to then until later on his character developed. 1. 2. If Vegeta is faced off with Piccolo or Kaioshin and he has him in headlock and can't get out, would Vegeta cheat even after agreeing he won't use Ssj? If you still don't understand, 1. Vegeta is aware of Goku entering the tournament. Chapter: 426 (DBZ 232), P7.2-3 Context: after Goku says he’ll enter the tournament Vegeta: “I’m looking forward to this. You’d better brace yourself. I’ve improved quite a lot.” Goku: “Me too, Vegeta.” 2. Gohan asks the saiyans (Vegeta, Goten and Trunks) on the plane not to go Ssj because of the media. Vegeta responds with on equal terms he holds the advantage even knowing Goku is going to enter. 3. Trunks agreeing with not going Ssj and lying about using one arm. 4. Difference between Goten going Ssj and Trunks going Ssj. Trunks was smart but got out smarted and his reaction was too cheat and broke his promise. Also, surely Mighty Mask costume isn't made out of magic or the hardest metal on earth?!? Do you really think a human made costume restricts Ssj power? Surely, if base Trunks and Goten are fairly close to #18, adding 50x would blow #18 out of the water. https://i.imgsafe.org/581b4b9f75.jpg https://i.imgsafe.org/581d7a5286.jpg @To anyone that says it's Toriyama's intention to make the kids this strong... Duh! Really?! Let me show you something first. https://i.imgsafe.org/5836499fd8.jpg https://i.imgsafe.org/583a92242f.jpg Throughout the 42 volumes, Toriyama has made it pretty easy for the reader to know who was suppose to be stronger. So from the first volume to Cell, Toriyama has kept the same formula, why would Toriyama change it during the Buu arc? It's because of fans own predetermine notion where they think they can understand the manga better than the author and assign power levels. Edited by Zoom, Aug 30 2016, 01:11 PM.



Thiln	Aug 30 2016, 01:56 PM Post #79
Posts: 2,481 Group: Member Member #12,166 Joined: March 23, 2015 Gender Male Favourite Anime Dragon Ball, Attack on Titan What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Hokuto no Ken, Berserk, Dragon Ball, Rurouni Kenshin, Attack on Titan, Kuroshitsuji	Kienzan has no established limitations shown in the manga. Anything implied in the anime is merely unverifiable conjecture on the part of the anime studio.



* Yu Narukami	Aug 30 2016, 02:35 PM Post #80
Izanagi! Posts: 12,330 Group: Retired Staff Member #6,446 Joined: July 3, 2011 Gender Not Specified Country None	Yeah. If the Kienzan could be tanked, it would've been tanked by Nappa or Freeza, opponents who're many times stronger than Krillin himself.



Slifer	Aug 30 2016, 03:10 PM Post #81
Posts: 3,488 Group: Member Member #10,141 Joined: September 7, 2013	Quote: The point was in Vegeta's reaction in both circumstances and Vegeta's word. I already explained why Vegeta was fine with Trunks using SSJ. The context of why he used it is irrelevant as Goten broke the pact first. Period. Regarding the left arm deal, that's was mid-fight dialogue between Trunks and Goten. Nothing suggests Vegeta even knew what was happening. Quote: The ONLY thing Vegeta kept is not fusing with Goku, while the other promises was just too hard for him to keep. You mean the promise of not using SSJ during the tournament? Because he never broke that promise. By the time Babidi teleported them back the tournament was over. Quote: If Vegeta is faced off with Piccolo or Kaioshin and he has him in headlock and can't get out, would Vegeta cheat even after agreeing he won't use Ssj? No he wouldn't because he said he wouldn't. Saying he would is completely baseless and directly contradicts what Vegeta, and by extension the author said. You could say he'd do it against those two because they weren't there when he made the statement and Kaioshin isn't part of the "gang", but even that would be reaching. Quote: 4. Difference between Goten going Ssj and Trunks going Ssj. Trunks was smart but got out smarted and his reaction was too cheat and broke his promise. As I said above, it doesn't matter why Trunks broke his promise because Goten did it first. If Goten stayed in Base the whole time and Trunks still went SSJ to win then you'd have an argument, but that's not what happened. Quote: Do you really think a human made costume restricts Ssj power? Did you read my comment at all? Quote: Which is still obviously an issue with the costume and not power If they insist on suppressing their blast to prevent hurting her then power clearly isn't an issue, and if power isn't an issue then why not simply charge in and beat the s*** out of her? Because they can't because suit is that restrictive to their mobility, even as Super Saiyans. Seems pretty simple.



+ Pyrus	Aug 30 2016, 03:40 PM Post #82
Posts: 39,342 Group: Legend Member #5,088 Joined: August 1, 2010 Gender Not Specified Country Chile	Squall Strife Aug 30 2016, 06:44 AM Pyrus Aug 30 2016, 06:16 AM Neither should meaningless filler. It's not in the original material. Filler has no bearing on that. What does that have to do with anything. This is a hypothetical Krillin Attack on Perfect Cell. Even Manga Krillin Kienzan can't do anything to Manga Perfect Cell. Just because it's filler doesn't mean it automatically contradicts the manga & it doesn't in this instance for that matter. If not, where in the manga does it show any of Krillin's attacks had any affect on Perfect Cell. lol What the others have said. The evidence is heavily favored in the manga.
	Spoiler: click to toggle


~~Squall Strife~~	Aug 30 2016, 05:34 PM Post #83
Posts: 1,188 Group: Suspended Member #13,373 Joined: July 12, 2016 Gender Male	Krillin-1,770 Nappa-4,000 So Nappa has over 2 times gap on Krillin. Hardly multiple times over. Krillin-75,000 Freeza-Second Form- 1,000,000 ----Second Form First Power Up- 1,100,000 ----Second Form Second Power Up- 1,200,000 Second Form Freeza has over a 10 times gap over Krillin.So the gaps are still feasible for Krillin's Kienzan to have an affect. But Perfect Cell is many, many times over Krillin. At least a 2,000 times gap over Krillin. Having Krillin's Kienzan still having an affect @ this point is pointless & not viable. lol The anime def. got that instance right. lol
	Gender Neutral, meaning I don't want to be specified to either gender. If you keep calling me by gender terms, I'm just going to call you an "it". That's all.


+ Pyrus	Aug 30 2016, 06:45 PM Post #84
Posts: 39,342 Group: Legend Member #5,088 Joined: August 1, 2010 Gender Not Specified Country Chile	Squall Strife Aug 30 2016, 05:34 PM Krillin-1,770 Nappa-4,000 So Nappa has over 2 times gap on Krillin. Hardly multiple times over. Krillin-75,000 Freeza-Second Form- 1,000,000 ----Second Form First Power Up- 1,100,000 ----Second Form Second Power Up- 1,200,000 Second Form Freeza has over a 10 times gap over Krillin.So the gaps are still feasible for Krillin's Kienzan to have an affect. But Perfect Cell is many, many times over Krillin. At least a 2,000 times gap over Krillin. Having Krillin's Kienzan still having an affect @ this point is pointless & not viable. lol The anime def. got that instance right. lol Says you. So while everyone else is ignoring your convenient and biased POV, you keep on with that, man. More power to you. Anyway, I don't even know where this argument is at anymore. I got lost in the ignoramity at some point. I think the last thing I was on was the base Vegeta thing. Obviously 18 was entering. She was right behind Vegeta on the plane. The thing with Piccolo is that Vegeta might not have known he was entering initially, but then at the tournament grounds he didn't throw a fit or call anybody out when he had to have known by then. He remained pretty calm, even when Piccolo forfeited against East Kaioshin due to a supposedly immense power gap. I'm not one to put Piccolo on the Cell Junior level like some others, but even having him underpowered, it's difficult to get him below base Vegeta when Vegeta isn't massively stronger than Gohan, who's not much stronger than Goten, whose base state power is around 18's. Goten: 100 18: 100 Gohan: 120 Piccolo: ??? Vegeta: 170 And then there's Gohan, the one that started that rule. He had it in his head to win the tournament as well, and he was the one that happily invited Piccolo. Goten: 100 18: 100 Piccolo: ??? Gohan: 120 Vegeta: 170 But we know Piccolo was already much stronger than 18 after the Room of Spirit and Time training, so...meh. Honestly, it seems like Toriyama forgot how strong Piccolo was at the Cell Games, or retconned his strength, but that's like an out-of-universe answer. Edited by Pyrus, Aug 30 2016, 06:56 PM.
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Zoom	Aug 30 2016, 09:12 PM Post #85
Posts: 3,426 Group: Member Member #12,146 Joined: March 16, 2015 Gender Male	Quote: If they insist on suppressing their blast to prevent hurting her then power clearly isn't an issue, and if power isn't an issue then why not simply charge in and beat the s* out of her? Because they can't because suit is that restrictive to their mobility, even as Super Saiyans. Seems pretty simple. When you look at base Goku who was helpless with 40 tons and then turned into a Ssj, those 40 tons were nothing when he turned but at base level 40 tons was dragging Goku down. Toriyama/Dragonball has pretty much been clear on who was supposedly the stronger of the two. Simple formula Toriyama used to show who was stronger going from Nappa to Vegeta to Frieza to #17 and #18 to Super Vegeta and #16 to Cell to Majin Buu to Ssj3 Goku to Evil Buu to Gohan absorbed Buu to Vegito. and you're saying a costume (not a special heavy one like Piccolo or Goku weighted cloths) restricted them and their mobility once they both turned into a Ssj? I know it also says in the manga "we're still at disadvantage". But considering it's a costume... Seems pretty retarded if you add the super saiyan multplier on top of that. Quote: You mean the promise of not using SSJ during the tournament? Because he never broke that promise. By the time Babidi teleported them back the tournament was over. Vegeta didn't broke the promise of not going Ssj because he didn't have to fight someone that will push him. He back handed his opponent who was talking s* to him. What part of "up to that point" you don't understand? I'm talking about his character (pride, stubborn, warrior, strong silent type, the characteristics that defines who Vegeta is as a character) and his reaction to certain events. Majority of the promises/declaration, Vegeta ever made up to that point (from his introduction in Saiyan arc to the last arc Cell), he broke or he was wrong. I'm not talking about current time because when Vegeta said he won't go Ssj, the current events is still unfolding. But based on past events, Vegeta has pretty much been wrong or has broken his promise. There are 42 volumes, 26 of them are related to Z. It's much easier to name the times Vegeta was actually right compared to the times he was wrong. Quote: Quote: No he wouldn't because he said he wouldn't. Saying he would is completely baseless and directly contradicts what Vegeta, and by extension the author said. You could say he'd do it against those two because they weren't there when he made the statement and Kaioshin isn't part of the "gang", but even that would be reaching. I didn't know Toriyama had intentions , maybe this explains why Toriyama intended Vegeta to be wrong all those times. Hmmm.. what is the word I'm looking for?.... Spoiler: click to toggle character! I don't think it's baseless, especially coming from Toriyama the author himself who wrote Vegeta that way. The only difference with Vegeta breaking and being wrong with past events to present events is present events hasn't unfolded yet when we read the manga, we are still exposing ourselves to Toriyama's intentions. And don't bring up Vegeta never went Ssj or the authors intention is always right, he didn't have the opportunity to do so against stronger opponents such as Piccolo, Kaioshin or even Goku. Vegeta's fight was against a weakling. Quote: I already explained why Vegeta was fine with Trunks using SSJ. The context of why he used it is irrelevant as Goten broke the pact first. Period. Did you read my comment at all? Irrelevant points, as you seem not to understand the difference between feats, direct evidence and indirect evidence. And also those points are covered with the main argument. Oh that's right, you're part of a group that thinks z-sword Gohan has gained enough to warrant a comparison with Buu. Also, how silly of me to forget that you insert Goku saying "i wonder" as evidence even failing to realize; 1. Toriyama has clearly said he doesn't plan ahead besides the weekly chapter he is writing for. 2. Before the z-sword was broken, everybody thought it held special power that allows you to defeat your enemies. 3. The person wielding the sword (Gohan) claim to be overrated once it was broken, but in a similar situation called the Old Kaioshin training "amazing". You'll think Gohan who was described in one of introduction panels, as one of the greatest masters can tell if swinging the sword would have gained him an significant increase. In both cases Gohan analysis and called one this and the other amazing. 4. The legendary Old Kaioshin corrects them as to say they are wrong. And in Japanese, the emphasizes is on the word wrong with bold and ! 5. Then Gohan needs another 6 hours of prep training then 20 hours of real training to defeat Fat Buu. Evil Buu wasn't introduced muchhh later. 6. After Goku witness what real training is, he was confidant in sending Gohan to become the hero.



~~Squall Strife~~	Aug 30 2016, 11:53 PM Post #86
Posts: 1,188 Group: Suspended Member #13,373 Joined: July 12, 2016 Gender Male	Pyrus Aug 30 2016, 06:45 PM Squall Strife Aug 30 2016, 05:34 PM Krillin-1,770 Nappa-4,000 So Nappa has over 2 times gap on Krillin. Hardly multiple times over. Krillin-75,000 Freeza-Second Form- 1,000,000 ----Second Form First Power Up- 1,100,000 ----Second Form Second Power Up- 1,200,000 Second Form Freeza has over a 10 times gap over Krillin.So the gaps are still feasible for Krillin's Kienzan to have an affect. But Perfect Cell is many, many times over Krillin. At least a 2,000 times gap over Krillin. Having Krillin's Kienzan still having an affect @ this point is pointless & not viable. lol The anime def. got that instance right. lol Says you. So while everyone else is ignoring your convenient and biased POV, you keep on with that, man. More power to you. Anyway, I don't even know where this argument is at anymore. I got lost in the ignoramity at some point. I think the last thing I was on was the base Vegeta thing. Obviously 18 was entering. She was right behind Vegeta on the plane. The thing with Piccolo is that Vegeta might not have known he was entering initially, but then at the tournament grounds he didn't throw a fit or call anybody out when he had to have known by then. He remained pretty calm, even when Piccolo forfeited against East Kaioshin due to a supposedly immense power gap. I'm not one to put Piccolo on the Cell Junior level like some others, but even having him underpowered, it's difficult to get him below base Vegeta when Vegeta isn't massively stronger than Gohan, who's not much stronger than Goten, whose base state power is around 18's. Goten: 100 18: 100 Gohan: 120 Piccolo: ??? Vegeta: 170 And then there's Gohan, the one that started that rule. He had it in his head to win the tournament as well, and he was the one that happily invited Piccolo. Goten: 100 18: 100 Piccolo: ??? Gohan: 120 Vegeta: 170 But we know Piccolo was already much stronger than 18 after the Room of Spirit and Time training, so...meh. Honestly, it seems like Toriyama forgot how strong Piccolo was at the Cell Games, or retconned his strength, but that's like an out-of-universe answer. Gender Neutral. How is it a "convenient & biased POV" When the numbers are more or less official. lol The last time Kienzan was used in a viable way was against Freeza & there was a 10 times gap between them @ least. Now the gap is wider between Krillin & Perfect Cell. But I suppose since the manga didn't show this obv. point, the anime should be ignored. I suppose if Krillin used a Kienzan & Beerus just stood there while not dodging, he would be cut in half because the manga never said how "powerful" Kienzan is. Yeah. Okay. lol
	Gender Neutral, meaning I don't want to be specified to either gender. If you keep calling me by gender terms, I'm just going to call you an "it". That's all.


+ Yusuke	Aug 31 2016, 02:56 AM Post #87
Posts: 7,023 Group: Elite Member Member #9,876 Joined: August 11, 2013 Gender Male Country Canada	Pretty sure the Daiz stated that the Kienzan can cut through anything.
	Ask Yusuke


+ Pyrus	Aug 31 2016, 03:01 AM Post #88
Posts: 39,342 Group: Legend Member #5,088 Joined: August 1, 2010 Gender Not Specified Country Chile	D2 Kuririn makes a cutter-like circle out of ki above the palm of the hand, then throws it at the opponent. It cuts anything in two with one slice. http://web.archive.org/web/20111103160343/http://kanzentai.com/trans-daiz02.php?m=08&id=spc_attack#link Granted, it then sounds hesitant about it cutting Nappa, but still.
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